Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. The double stack G19 is thicker. Liver problems can also be caused by a variety of factors that damage the liver, such as viruses, alcohol use and obesity. What a joke! Handgun wounds include the first three of these factors, but generally do not include the fourth. Open the tools menu in your browser. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. The .50 SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. Owned a model 29 .357 They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. The reason is recoil. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. When a lot of agencies began switching to 9mm from .45 ACP and other heavier calibers, something became very apparent: the FMJ 9mm at high velocity tended .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. For members of the hand-cannon clique, toting a weapon loaded with anything less is just asking to be shot or killed by street punks who are feelin lucky.. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. A tool yes but not a valid substitute. It goes in a like a nail.. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. Sound familiar?? I carried a Colt 1911 while serving in Korea. The .22, meanwhile. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. A century? The fifteen round magazine contributes to the spray and pray thinking while the 1911 makes one concentrate on placing the shot. Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. .45 ACP 10 Round Magazine mobility debuff removed, and .45 ACP 17 Round Magazine mobility increased from 96% to 98%. All the scientific debates the fact is both are great but its interesting to me as a marine my understanding that the 45 was developed for the jungle warfare against drugged up Muslim extremist in the Philippines inthat timeframe and then fast forward to Falluja drugged up Muslims extremist And everybody Marines wanted 45 again In real situations Where it matters most I just wrote my friend who is in the thick of - and Falluja lost an arm multiple casualties and his answer was quick and simple 45. You need to be a little more specific. .45 caliber merely refers to the diameter of the bullet. There are a large variety of cartridges that fire b Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. I sure do love 45acp though. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. to stop the threat. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. Thank you Bill ! It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. Because size is king? Maybe Obamas army should be issued paint ball guns so there is a non-lethal component too. One round goes off, and you get a failure to feed. When the cavalry at the time switched to the .45 round, the round was effective in doing enough damage to put them down more effectively. But the major difference is that you would have been 2 rounds away from having to reload as compared to 6 rounds in the case of a Glock 17. The deers shot with 9 ran and ran far compared to the short distance the 45 shot deer covered (100yds or less). Mr. But you have not reached the mark to replace that recoil spring. With civilians Mosher shootings occur within 7 yards thats 21 feet are closer usually closer. Police1 is revolutionizing the way the law enforcement community When the. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. Spread the word; knowledge is power! This is what can incapacitate a target, even with a poorly placed torso shot. The Glock 17/19 could be a possibility as well, though, as there are plenty of them already in the inventory, and the P320 also seemed destined for the FBI (which had similar requirements), but they suddenly settled on the Glock at the last minute. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 450 ft/s will burst a human eye. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. But in summer I have just discovered the Sig Sauer P938, a 9mm 7+1 with extended magazine. As long as YOU are comfortable with the choice, then Im happy for you! There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. Any of these rounds will do the job in the hands of a skilled shooter, period. When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? It has less recoil, is less expensive and its penetration apparently compares favorably with the larger-sized rounds. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. We were allowed to carry bone stock ( night sights ok. weapon purchased at our own expense ) Smith and Glock 21s ( It was the 2nd Gen Glock era. G27 with the 10 for EDC and G22 with 22 count mag for inside the house, 40 doesnt seem to have that much more pop than 9mm to me, and i have relatively small hands. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. I love it. I know this is off topic. Vital organs sit deep within the human body, so penetration and permanent cavity volume are important factors. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. I have used the 1911 govt. I have used both calibers personally in combat, and I can say unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever that the .45 cal DEFINITELY has much more knockdown power than the 9mm which due to its higher velocity tends to punch right through the assailant leaving him wounded but still on his feet and able to return fire. But the guy kept on coming. Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. Thanks. People kill people. Much of the difference is And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. WebThe human body can survive relatively high blast overpressure without experiencing barotrauma. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. I have several calibers, personally I like my Sig 239 40cal as my sidearm ! However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. Fire Rate: 240 rounds/minute. Beats. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. I used to work in inner city and poor crime ridden areas when all I had was the 45. Then get ready for a gunfight. Every round has its purpose. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. An exit wound differs greatly from an entrance wound. I see your point. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. finds relevant news, identifies important training information, Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. And speed kills barriers. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. His chest was gurgling and slurping. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 450 ft/s will make a hole in, but not penetrate 4" plate glass. I think it maybe a case of, its better to wound the enemy, than to kill him. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. The victim died immediately. Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! WebAs shown in Fig. You fire lots and lots of them through das maschinepistole and drown em in hot metal until they fall down and stop trying to kill you. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. I find that there is a difference when using 9mm vs .45acp. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. laugh at the forensic expert and 2.) I thought a 55 115lb girl with small hands would want a .380, so I was surprise when she chose a Walther PPS in 9mm. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. I have also read that the 124gr NATO round is a +P. Even long range shots! I prefer 45 revolvers. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. The old adage If its good enough for the military, its good enough for me. is just nonsense today. That much is true. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. The 45 1911 did just that. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. So youre that guy safe at home on the computer. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. Chiverss history of the assault rifle, The Gun: In the macabre world of terminal ballistics, the study of what happens when projectiles actually strike, much can be made of over-penetration: the phenomenon of bullets passing clean through their targets. The main reason I now have a 9 mm is that at the time, I could not find a small enough 45 that was double action. I prefer the .45 ACP. Now thats hilarious. How about a discussion of American made vs foreign made weapons for our military? So In a effort to That changed for me Dec of 2017. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. Love reading your stuff. If that were true, we would only have one size Shoe, Clothing Etc. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. In the last 30 years, the FBI has moved from .38/.357 caliber revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. True. False. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. There are four major handgun founding factors. Thanks. For a tommygun, I'd probably go with 1d8 base damage, +1 magical weapon bonus to represent penetration and damage, and the ability to make a cone area attack (save or take damage). You could smell the gunpowder. NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. Maybe .22 LR? If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. Also we are talking pistols. I served in the USMC and in combat. As Sir Isaac Newton pointed out a few centuries ago, for every action theres an equal reaction in the opposite direction. In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). The beautiful country in south east Asia. Copyright 2023 Both forget one major factor. Plenty of gang shootings. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. I was a PA-C in the military. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. Another, was a 300lb black bear. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. Elton Makin was a US marine in World War One. In September 1918 American troops had overrun the German front line, and he was sent back carrying a I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. In case you didn't get the memo, the FBI's ballistic testing labs are the best in the world, and they've been doing it for a long time. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. The ambulance took him away. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. And the department is no small one. A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. I just had to get my 2 cents in. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. Gimme a break! If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. If an operator like a .45 go for it. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. Mamma and papa went getting along I guess. And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. Hollow points also create a larger temporary cavity. Startle affect. Which Id be inclined to think a .45 would transfer more force more immediately taking the spirit out of most. Makes no difference to me. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Both really do not muster up for the Marines. For this reason, some dismiss magnum rounds altogether and sing the praises of the S&W .40 round, which supposedly combines the best features of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. You hit it dead on its not the cal thats most important its what you can do with it. I would love to get my hands on the data and map it by cartridge. If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. and I guess $$.. Were investigating how it spends its money. I definitely know how to settle this little petty argument. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. The one magor factor that keeps deciding the outcome is if the victim or assailant has the actual ability to kill. I am old school. Previously, the classic .45-caliber Colt 1911 was one of three pistols that Raiders were allowed to carry, but now the 9mm Glock 19 is the only pistol that Marine special operators can take into battle, said Maj. Nick Mannweiler, a spokesman for Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. Also SOCOM has been using hollowpoint ammunition for years, but primarily against unsanctioned terrorist personnel. If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. F=MA always applies to the known laws of physics. This is just one of them: https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/. Fire Rate: 850 rounds/minute. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. You are up close and personal with this guy. Just happened to recall the powerful 10 auto cartridge. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. Been hunting 49 years. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. Think the title of this article is misleading. My department switched to +p for 45s. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. Witnessed it first hand. Damage: 55. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. JP-Thank you for your real life documentation. Shot placement rules. Like cars and motorcycles its all a matter of preference for each individual.God Bless America and May God keep us safe so we dont ever have to be put in a situation to have to find out. I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. Glocks are cheap and reliable. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. I have been shooting for 50 years now. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. Type of ammo, stopping power, number of shots, shot placement, kick back, does the gun fit your hand, and whether your cheap crappy gun jams on you these are all part of the equation. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. You get Into a real shooting scenario. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. Or 45 cal quickly changes the perspective f the individual. When dealing with a highly motivated target, milliseconds matter.

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